\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014<\/p>\n
On April 3, 2012 a Guestbook comment from \u201cJocko\u201d of the Harlem Lords was received:<\/p>\n
I am a member of The Harlem Lords Seniors. The one that the so-called REV. Thomas Skinner\u00a0\u00a0 claimed that he was the Leader of The Harlem Lords ‘n was saved by Jesus. He lied ‘n made Money, Fortune, ‘n Fame off of our rep.<\/span><\/p>\n Tom Skinner was a black evangelist from the 1960s and 1970s, well known for his book Black and Free<\/em> and for his role as chaplain for the NFL Washington Redskins.\u00a0 Skinner started an organization called Tom Skinner Crusades and even had a comic based on his life story called \u201cUp from Harlem.\u201d<\/p>\n Up From Harlem Cover – Tom Skinner<\/p><\/div>\n Intrigued, I emailed Jocko for more details specifically about Skinner and in general about the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 Jocko provided his phone number and on May 2, 23 and 24, I interviewed him about his time in the Harlem Lords and for his thoughts on Tom Skinner.\u00a0 The interviews lasted for a total of 119 minutes.\u00a0 I re-arranged our conversation so it is in a linear fashion and easy to follow.\u00a0 Below are the hi-lights of the interviews, with Jocko\u2019s words as he spoke them.<\/p>\n Jocko of the Harlem Lords<\/p><\/div>\n Please note that some of the content here is for mature audiences only<\/strong>.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Jocko is my name in the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 I also have another name called Indio and I\u2019m the editor in chief of Street News.\u00a0 I\u2019m also the publisher, and you can use the original name John Washington.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Maybe we can start from the beginning?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I was born Jan.24, 1939.\u00a0 I went to Resurrection grammar school and started from Kindergarten to the 8th<\/sup> grade.\u00a0 I met the Harlem Lords when I was in the 8th<\/sup> grade.\u00a0 I\u2019m Cherokee-Seminole Indian, black and white.\u00a0 I was like an oddball in Harlem where we lived.\u00a0 My mother and father had a glass store, called 8th<\/sup> Avenue Glass and Shade, so during the summer I would help my father.\u00a0 When I would go to measure glasses, this guy named DC would stop me and say, \u201cHey white boy what you doing in the neighbourhood?\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cI\u2019m not white and I live in the neighbourhood.\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cI need 75 cents white boy.\u00a0 You know what the saucer said to the cup?\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cNo, what?\u201d\u00a0 [He said] \u201cGive it up, Give it up!\u201d\u00a0 I gave him 75 cents, he said, \u201ccome with me.\u201d\u00a0 We went to the store and he bought some wine.\u00a0 Wine at that time cost 35 cents.\u00a0 Five stars.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Was that Thunderbird? (Note:\u00a0 Thunderbird wine was popular with teenagers from the 1950s)<\/strong>.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, this was before Thunderbird.\u00a0 I\u2019m giving you the real deal.\u00a0 Before Thunderbird and all of that s**t.\u00a0 It was five stars.\u00a0 And what he did, he opened the wine, took a little bit and put it in the tip and dropped it for the people that was in the joint and then he put it up to his lips and he drank about \u00be of it and gave me the rest.\u00a0 And I drank it.\u00a0 Then he said, \u201cYou can go white boy.\u201d\u00a0 I said [to myself], \u201cIf I let this up and keeps f**ing with me everytime I go, he will f**k me up or his gang is and will try to rob my mother and fathers store.\u201d\u00a0 Next time I saw him I told him I want to join the gang.\u00a0 So he said, \u201cOkay white boy what you want to be called?\u201d\u00a0 I said \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cYou\u2019ll know,\u201d and he took me up to meet the other boys like Crazy Red, Duke, Big Count.\u00a0 They formed a circle and started punching the s**t out of me in my stomach and my face.\u00a0 And I\u2019m trying to fight all of them.\u00a0 They f**ked me up.\u00a0 But I kept fighting back at them until DC stopped.\u00a0 And they said, \u201cWhat do you want to be called white boy?\u201d\u00a0 And I said, \u201cJocko.\u201d\u00a0 The name Jocko came from Jocko the DJ originally from Philadelphia.\u00a0 So I took his name and then I became Jocko of the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 And they didn\u2019t f**k with me anymore.<\/p>\n D: \u00a0What year was this?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 This was in about 1953.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What was the ages of the Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 14-17 or 18 for the Seniors.\u00a0 And the Juniors would be 12-14, some eleven.\u00a0 Some of them were the same age or maybe a year younger and they were in the Juniors.\u00a0 It was DC who made the decision and Big Count.\u00a0 They would make the decision.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did the Juniors and Seniors hang out together?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Yeah.\u00a0 A lot.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 For you to join the Harlem Lords you had to take a beating to see if you had any heart?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 That wasn\u2019t always the case.\u00a0 Everyone had a different initiation and some was just automatically in.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Describe some of the other initiations.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Most of the time it would be fighting two or three guys or a one on one.\u00a0 Or sometimes you would have to fight seven in a circle.\u00a0 It depended on DC and Big Count.\u00a0 And sometimes it would be a one-on-one.\u00a0 It depends on the leader and the War Counsellor.\u00a0 A lot of times they knew your reputation.\u00a0 Certain people was drafted into the Harlem Lords.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What do you mean by drafted?\u00a0 They just come up to somebody and say you\u2019re in?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Yeah, we went through the neighbourhood.\u00a0 Like you\u2019re drafted in the army.\u00a0 You have to pay money for protection.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Would it be easy for someone to quit the Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Yeah, depending on why they quit.\u00a0 David quit and he was in the Juniors.\u00a0 One of the guys cut a guy in the Juniors, I think that\u2019s what made David quit the Harlem Lords.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What are the turf lines of the Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 It used to be from 155th<\/sup> street and the polo grounds all the way up to to 145th<\/sup> street and Bradhurst avenue all the way to Lennox Avenue.\u00a0 Then we went to the Bronx and we beat some gangs up there and they joined us so we had the Harlem Lords up in the Bronx.\u00a0 We [also]\u00a0 had a division in Staten Island, I had cousins that lived there.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What about south of you guys, so 135th<\/sup>.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I don\u2019t know.\u00a0 They had a lot of small gangs and most of them just took care of their own turf, they never looked to fight.\u00a0 They just wanted to be left alone.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know the name of their gangs.\u00a0 All I know is that in time everybody became dope fiends and the girls became dope fiends and prostitutes and went their way.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How many members were in the Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Oh boy.\u00a0 There was DC, the leader of the Harlem Lords, and he\u2019s dead, he had a brother named Rock who is dead.\u00a0 There was Big Count, Saint who was leader of the juniors.\u00a0 There was Crazy Red, Stevie.\u00a0 We had Tuvie, we had Donald, we had Syke, then we had Porky, we had Costello, Raymond Baker.\u00a0 As a matter of a fact one of our members was Primo he ended up being a cop.\u00a0 But we had so many Harlem Lords.\u00a0 Neil Griffin, he used to play ball with us, the famous boxer.\u00a0 He never was in the gang but he was considered a Harlem Lord, anybody in our neighbourhood that lived there they had protection.\u00a0 And our girls had protection.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 50 members?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 50 at least.\u00a0 155th<\/sup> St. to around 150th<\/sup> street that\u2019s where it originated because we all grew up together.\u00a0 We used to fight each other.\u00a0 You know one block would fight one block.\u00a0 They would take our scooters and spinning tops.\u00a0 Then all of a sudden the gang started and it was the Harlem Lords and then everybody joined up so they wouldn\u2019t get their money taken or beat up.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Tell me about the gang way of talking.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 It was, \u201chey baby, what\u2019s up baby.\u00a0 Hey brother.\u201d\u00a0 Brother didn\u2019t come in too much it was mostly, \u201cmy man, how you doing my man.\u201d<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What about playing the dozens?\u00a0 Where you trash talk the guys in the gang and it would be a competition who could one-up the other guys using words.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 That would be sounding.\u00a0 They would get mad sometimes and the s**t would be on if you talked about anybody\u2019s mother or father.\u00a0 If you wanted to fight that particular guy you just say, \u201cI f**ked your mother, your mother ain\u2019t s**t.\u201d\u00a0 But that wasn\u2019t too much, that was in grammar school.\u00a0 That sounding part we didn\u2019t do too much.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did the Harlem Lords have a particular way of dress?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Most of the time it was dungarees.\u00a0 We had caps.\u00a0 There was a hat called \u201cdeep rolls,\u201d that was the style.\u00a0 Sometimes we had bell bottoms.\u00a0 But there was no particular uniform.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 So there was no gang jackets?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Where would the Harlem Lords hang out the most?\u00a0 Was there a candy store?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 There was two stores.\u00a0\u00a0 One candy store was Ruth candy store that was up on McCombs.\u00a0 The other one was Moses.\u00a0 Have you heard of Moses Powell?\u00a0 He taught prisoners karate when they were incarcerated.\u00a0 He taught the police.\u00a0 He\u2019s famous but he\u2019s dead.\u00a0 He had a candy store on 8th<\/sup> avenue between 153rd<\/sup> and 152nd<\/sup> and we used to hang in his store.\u00a0 He also was a Harlem Lord.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0\u00a0 Did you hang out more at Moses\u2019 candy store or the other one?<\/p>\n J;\u00a0 Moses was on 8th<\/sup> Avenue and Ruth was on McCombs.\u00a0 Most of the times we would meet at McCombs but if the candy store on 8th<\/sup> avenue was open we could dance in there and grind and do more.\u00a0 It was a bigger candy store.\u00a0 We could go in the back with the girls.\u00a0 But Ruth\u2019s candy store was real small.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How would you describe the appearance of Moses\u2019 candy store?\u00a0 Was it like a 7-11 store?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, it was much smaller than that.\u00a0 Have you been in an apartment before?\u00a0 Moses might have been like a 3-bedroom.\u00a0 Both of them had the juke box that you put coins in.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 I assume they would sell candy bars and pop?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Yeah and soda, stuff like that.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did anybody in the Harlem Lords read so-called \u201chorror comics\u201d?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 We read funny books.\u00a0 Captain Marvel, Superman, Batman, the Lone Ranger.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What about Vault of Fear, Haunt of Fear?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No.\u00a0 I read mostly magazines and funny books.\u00a0 I used to trade funny books.\u00a0 Mostly cowboy funny books and batman and superman and captain marvel and the Hulk.\u00a0 And they had the Classic books, I remember reading classics.\u00a0 I liked reading.\u00a0 I went to a Catholic school, so it was a lot of reading.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How would you describe the role of girls in the gang?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Most of the girls had a man that was in the gang.\u00a0 If one girl dug another girl\u2019s man you know they would either sneak away or he would make them fight and the winner he would take.\u00a0 Or he might sneak in the back and still mess with the other girl.\u00a0 But most of the times everybody was cool.\u00a0 We had some girls in the group that loved to just be f**ked and freak, you understand?\u00a0 And we was the same way.\u00a0 We would be with the girls, that was our steady but we freaked with other girls that wasn\u2019t our steadies.\u00a0 It was a time of wine, women, song and war.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What about so-called trains?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 That\u2019s what I\u2019m telling you.\u00a0 We would do that with girls in our gang, our debs.\u00a0 Those who wanted to do it when they wanted to do it.\u00a0 They wasn\u2019t forced on that.\u00a0 We never raped any girls or anything like that.\u00a0 Most of the girls that we freaked with, they wanted to freak, if they was our debs or not.\u00a0 We never made any girls do nothing we didn\u2019t want them to do.\u00a0 They was down and crazy and wild just like us.\u00a0 You ever heard of grind-em up?\u00a0 You would dance with the girl on the wall which was called the Wall-grind.\u00a0 And then you could also have the Sandwich.\u00a0 With one guy on the front, one girl in the middle and one guy in the back.\u00a0 They were house parties which consisted of a lot of grind-em ups.\u00a0 Sometime they played a little fast music for you to bop or dance but most of them was grind-em ups.\u00a0 Most of the girls were just wild like we were and wanted to party and thought they was in love.\u00a0 And if it was freak time we would all freak in front of one another.\u00a0 And it wasn\u2019t anything.\u00a0 Freak with our own partner, there might be three or four of us.\u00a0 Then we would grind we would be making love while we dancing.\u00a0 It was nothing scared, we didn\u2019t had no punk girls.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did the girls go into gang fights with you?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Oh yes, they would fight.\u00a0 Listen, the girls had heart and they wouldn\u2019t take no s**t.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Tell me about the girls in a rumble.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 They would carry our pieces a lot of the times because nobody would think the girls would be carrying stuff.\u00a0 We might tell them where to go and they would meet us there and they would be carrying our pieces.\u00a0 A lot of girls were just bad, they were just bad, and would be carrying their own pieces and fight.\u00a0 Or they would fight any girls.\u00a0 A lot of the times they fought each other over one of the guys in the group.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Would the girls ever fight any of the guys?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Hell no.\u00a0 They might be arguing or something like that.\u00a0 I never saw any girl go up against guy.\u00a0 If she spoke wrong she might get a jaw broke, or a busted lip or slapped.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did the girls have a name for themselves?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Harlem Lords Debs<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How many girls were in the Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 About 20.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did any of the Harlem Lords get married after the gang fell apart?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, not that I know of.\u00a0 Most of the girls in the gangs they um, they became strung out on drugs.\u00a0 I had two or three girls working for me selling drugs and I had a stable.\u00a0 When I got busted I was on page one of the Daily News called \u201cSuper Fly.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m not bulls**tting you.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got a lot of nicknames.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What are some of the words you would use for weapons?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 A piece, \u201cyou got the shank, you got the blade.\u201d<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did you use the word jitterbug or bop?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, the jitterbug comes from a dance that originated back in the \u201830s\u2019 and roaring \u201820\u2019s.\u00a0 Somebody might say he\u2019s a jitterbug, the old people would call you a jitterbug mean you was wow.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What word did you use for gang fight?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 \u201cThe s**t is on.\u201d<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What kind of weapons were used by the Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Knives, zip guns, real guns, of course knives, sticks, baseball bats.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did you have any friends in the Harlem Lords you knew personally that died in a gang fight?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, no, no.\u00a0 None of us. \u00a0We might have got cut or hurt or injured but never die, no.\u00a0 You just pulled out your piece and started shooting.\u00a0 You might aim at somebody you might see somebody fall.\u00a0 But most of the times we tried to fight with fists or brass knuckles, knives, clubs.\u00a0 Some had zip guns.\u00a0 But of course a lot of people got wounded and died, I don\u2019t know who.\u00a0 That happened so long ago, most of the times we hurt and injured a lot of people.\u00a0 I saw people go down, you know, that\u2019s the way it was.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What were the police like?\u00a0 What was the relationship like between the Harlem Lords and the police?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 They didn\u2019t take any s**t.\u00a0 Now, I\u2019m going to tell you about the 3-2, the 32nd<\/sup> precinct.\u00a0 In the beginning when we were young we ducked the police.\u00a0 If they busted us we got arrested.\u00a0 Further down the road when we became like 17, 18, 19, they would have crap games in the summer, you know shoot dice.\u00a0 And they would come around and get their cut.\u00a0 There was one guy that was controlling the game.\u00a0 So if you shot 5 dollars and you made the number you would have $10.\u00a0 If you shot the $10, double up, instead of you having $20, they take a dollar, you have $19.\u00a0 You follow me?\u00a0 So that would be for the cut man, the guy controlling the dice.\u00a0 Every hour the police would come by and they would get their cut, you would have to pay them in order to keep the crap game going.\u00a0 Further down the road when the people started selling heroin, cocaine, reefer, if they busted you they would say, \u201cthis is mine\u201d and give it back to you so you could sell it for them.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did the police ever catch you in your gang activities?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, most of the time we was too cool.\u00a0 We had our meetings at Moses\u2019 candy store or Ruth\u2019s or we would go to the park or in the tunnel where we\u2019d sing.\u00a0 No, they never caught us in any activity.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 The police wouldn\u2019t rough you up?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 They would rough you up, s**t yeah!\u00a0 They\u2019d beat the hell out of you!<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 For what reason?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 If they said \u201cgive me this corner, this corner is mine,\u201d like say, five to seven guys is\u00a0 hanging out on the corner or in the middle of the block, talking or singing, and they wanted to make their rep, they would say, \u201cthis corner is mine, okay guys, I\u2019ll see you later.\u201d\u00a0 That meant leave.\u00a0 If you didn\u2019t leave, he would take one guy out of the bunch and beat the s**t out of him.\u00a0 He might arrest them. But if he didn\u2019t want to he would just beat the s**t out of him.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Why would the police want a certain corner?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 To get their rep known, cause they was the man, they was the police.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 There was a Chaplain boy that got killed up by Columbian Presbyterian hospital and Burt Lancaster, they made a movie out of it, Devil\u2019s in the Streets<\/em>.\u00a0 It was the Puerto Ricans against the Irish in Spanish Harlem.\u00a0 The real deal was that the Egyptian Kings got busted up there.\u00a0 We were supposed to join them to fight this white gang up there.\u00a0 What happened the white boy got killed was in a wheelchair or something like that.\u00a0 But he was holding their weapons.\u00a0 The paper said the gangs killed a Catholic boy that was disabled.\u00a0 But they played it the white boy wasn\u2019t in the gang, it came out years later.\u00a0 He was in the gang.\u00a0 The Daily News and all of those newspapers had it a white Catholic boy being attacked by Mongols and s**t like that, whatever they called it.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 The boy you are talking about was Michael Farmer and he was killed by the Egyptian Kings in July 1957. The papers never said he was part of the gang but my research now indicates at the very minimum he was a good friend of the Jesters and probably a gang member himself.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 He was a gang member but they was trying to make it look he was an invalid which was very smart.\u00a0 He was carrying their s**t, that was very smart.\u00a0 And we were supposed to go up there!\u00a0 They went ahead of time before us, so we never got there, but Michael Farmer was part of the gang up there.\u00a0 And they were all white right, from Washington Heights.\u00a0 The Egyptian Kings were our brother gang and told us to meet them there.\u00a0 That\u2019s how it jumped off.\u00a0 We was never part of that.\u00a0 We got there late.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 So they decided to go ahead of you because they were eager to get into a rumble?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Everybody liked to have a rep and to say, \u201cwe f**ked them up, we were there first, we didn\u2019t back down.\u201d<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How would you describe a gang rumble to someone who has never been in one?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 What would happen most of the time, each gang would meet up.\u00a0 Let\u2019s say they would meet up at the Yankee Stadium.\u00a0 And the war counsellor, each war counsellor would talk to one another, meet one another to see if there was going to be a rumble.\u00a0 If there was going to be a rumble, the war counsellor would generally hit each other or try to stab one another or run back to their gangs and the whole rumble would charge one another.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Everybody would run up to one another or be shooting at each other and that was a rumble.\u00a0 Most of the time the war counsellors started it.\u00a0 But it would be the President, the Vice president to say the s**t is on, or it\u2019s on.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Were you afraid to be in a rumble?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Damn right I was scared!\u00a0 But I fought.\u00a0 We had a song.\u00a0 Everybody had a gang song.\u00a0 Our gang song used to go like this: (singing) \u266a \u266b\u266aOur base crazy nnnnnding dongnnnningding dong \u266a \u266b\u266a<\/p>\n I would come in and DC would come in and harmonize to that and were walking down the street.\u00a0 And then all of a sudden we would start singing:<\/p>\n \u266a \u266b\u266aWe are the Harlem Lords, the Mighty Harlem Lords, his name is DC, the mighty DC, his name is Big Count, his name is Deuce, the Mighty Deuce, his name is Jocko, the mighty Jocko.\u00a0 We are the Harlem Lords, the mighty Harlem Lords. \u266a \u266b\u266a<\/p>\n Click here to hear the song<\/a> https:\/\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/?page_id=556<\/p>\n We would sing that from our destination of leaving to our destination of getting to where we was going.\u00a0 Drinking wine most of the time or just being happy.\u00a0 We also had our Debs go with us a lot of times.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What was the difference between War Counsellor and President?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Just like we [the U.S.] have a President you have somebody for Defense who would declare war.\u00a0 He had the right to declare war on his own.\u00a0 Or he would go to the President DC, and then DC might call for a council and we have a meeting.\u00a0 And vote on it.\u00a0 But they had the main say, the President and the War Counsellor.\u00a0 They made the decision who we fight, when we fight, where we fight.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What happens if everybody in the Harlem Lords voted not to fight, could the President overturn that?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Of course.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 And would he do that?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 We never voted not to fight not that I remember.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What gangs did you fight the most?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 In \u201953, \u201954 even 55 there was gang wars and we would fight different gangs like the Fordham Baldies, the Dragons, the Chaplains.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 You are talking about the Fort Greene Chaplains?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Yeah.\u00a0 Let me tell you what happened.\u00a0 There was some girls that lived in our neighbourhood and they moved to Brooklyn in the projects with their mothers.\u00a0 Since they were from our neighbourhood we used to go to their apartment and have dances.\u00a0 The Chaplains would be there.\u00a0 (the girls) introduced me to the Fort Greene Chaplains as their cousins.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 For protection?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 It was for protection.\u00a0 If you were a stranger they could f**k you up.\u00a0 We met John the Bop over in Brooklyn [Fort Greene Chaplains].<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 One time there was a dance over at the Rockland palace, and a lot of the Chaplains came over there.\u00a0 The Rockland Palace was 155th<\/sup> street and it was owned by Father Devone, he had a place there that he would rent out for people to dance and everything.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 They got into an argument with us, we had a fist fight, we didn\u2019t have a shoot out.\u00a0 Then, you know, we wasn\u2019t as cool as we was supposed to be.\u00a0 But I still went to visit my cousins.<\/p>\n Rockland Palace<\/p><\/div>\n D:\u00a0 What gangs were you friendly with?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Originally the Egyptian Kings and the Chaplains.\u00a0 There was a little gang in between our turf.\u00a0 We didn\u2019t bother because they all grew up with us.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Where did the Egyptian Kings have their turf?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Up on the hill.\u00a0 I say from 155th<\/sup> and Amsterdam to 145th<\/sup> and Amsterdam.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 You are saying the turf of the Egyptian Kings and Harlem Lords was very close to each other?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Look, let me explain something.\u00a0 Harlem is called the valley.\u00a0 When you go up on the hill like Amsterdam Avenue it\u2019s called the hill.\u00a0 So there\u2019s the valley and the hill, all right?\u00a0 So the turf was divided that way.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What is the reason the Harlem Lords & Egyptian Kings became unfriendly?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I don\u2019t know.\u00a0 It was between I think our leader in the Harlem Lords, DC.\u00a0 What happened was the Egyptian Kings had a boxer.\u00a0 And he could fight.\u00a0 They came down, I think it was July 3 or 4 and wanted their guy to fight anybody in the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 And so about 2 or 3 went to fight him on a one on one.\u00a0 And he was knocking out, he was f**king up our boys.\u00a0 So DC said to me, \u201cyou want him Jocko?\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cHe\u2019s a bad motherf**ker.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cI\u2019ll try him.\u201d\u00a0 This guy Crazy Red, he\u2019s dead now, was fighting him.\u00a0 And he threw a combination and Crazy Red fell against the car.\u00a0 Marcus came up to him with a big stick that you play stickball with and he swung and hit the guy in the head so hard that blood came out of his ear.\u00a0 And then the s**t was on.\u00a0 There was only four of them, and the boxer got f**ked up but he was able to run away and they ran up the hill.\u00a0 And that was it.\u00a0 They didn\u2019t f**k with us no more and we didn\u2019t f**k with them.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What was the reason that they came down to fight in the first place?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 There was a disagreement or some type of argument with DC or one of the guys or Deuce or something, I don\u2019t know.\u00a0 All I know is when it did happen the guys that I knew in the Egyptian Kings and I was friends with we sitting right next to one another.\u00a0 And they fighting a one on one and we knew that they had a winner.\u00a0 It wasn\u2019t fair.\u00a0 This guy was a professional fighter.\u00a0 And our professional fighter was Neil Griffin and Raymond Baker who were both Golden Gloves. \u00a0But they wasn\u2019t around.\u00a0 And this guy was f**king up everybody until Marcus hit him and I had to swing on the guy next to me even though we were friends.\u00a0 The s**t was on.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t cut him but I f**ked him up a little bit with my hands cause I was a good fighter.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What was the name of the Egyptian King boxer?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t know.\u00a0 But he could fight, a little short guy.\u00a0 He was no more than 5\u20196 or 5\u20195.\u00a0 But everybody he fought that stood up, he threw 2-3 combinations.\u00a0 It was a knockout.\u00a0 It wasn\u2019t no \u201cI don\u2019t want to fight no more.\u201d\u00a0 It was a knockdown.\u00a0 So I said, \u201cWell I\u2019ll try him.\u201d\u00a0 But before I got to go against him, Marcus knocked the s**t out of him, swung so hard like he was hitting a baseball, a rubber ball.\u00a0 He swung and blood shot out of his ear.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Was he knocked out cold?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No! No!\u00a0 He stood there and blood came out of his head.\u00a0 And he said, \u201coh okay you want to do that s**t?\u201d\u00a0 And then Marcus said, \u201cyeah, yeah.\u201d\u00a0 And Marcus dropped his stick and was ready to go against him one on one.\u00a0 But the boxer was so f**ked up he started backing up.\u00a0 Then DC said, \u201cf**k him up\u201d and the s**t was on.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Was the Harlem Lords involved in any gang intervention in the terms of churches or settlement houses trying to work with the Harlem Lords to go social instead of a fighting gang?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, there was somebody all the gangs had voted for to be like the peacemaker of all the gangs.\u00a0 So if there was something wrong he would be an arbitrator\/mediator I guess you could call him.\u00a0 But eventually all he did is ask them to drink and eventually he disappeared.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What was the relationship between the Harlem Lords and adults in the neighbourhood?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I\u2019m glad you asked.\u00a0 At that time most of the grocery stores, meat markets were owned by whites — Italians and Jewish people.\u00a0 The Harlem Lords started trying, making the white people pay a fee for protection.\u00a0 If they didn\u2019t pay the fee they would break their windows or rob them.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How much would the Harlem Lords make in those fees?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Most of the times DC and the war counsellor would get money they might get groceries or free soda.\u00a0 I never collected anything.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How would you describe the economic conditions in 1955?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 It was just beginning to be turned around.\u00a0 At that time the majority of grocery stores and buildings were owned by white people, mostly Jewish people, owned the apartments.\u00a0 They also had the meat stores and then you had some Italians owning cleaners and grocery stores.\u00a0 And they also had some buildings.\u00a0 But during that time when they started coming out with \u201cBuy Black\u201d and that was part of the beginning when Black people took over the buildings they made it worse than the originators did because of greed.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Describe the appearance of the buildings, the projects from the 1950s.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 They were clean.\u00a0 The Harlem River Projects were very old, they were one of the first that came up in Harlem.\u00a0 They were only 2-3 stories, they were very small.\u00a0 They had basketball courts and a little chamber suite when you went through they had an echo chamber.\u00a0 Everybody that started singing would like to go to the echo chamber to sing.\u00a0 A lot of people played basketball.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Was Harlem in your area mainly a black neighbourhood?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 In the beginning yes.\u00a0 Then around 1951-1952 a lot of Puerto Ricans migrated to the Colonial Projects and that was the projects behind the polo grounds where the New York Giants stayed.\u00a0 We had a lot of West Indians, a few Spanish, also a few whites, but the majority was at that time coloured.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Was there any friction [between blacks and Puerto Ricans]?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 There was no problem there.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What about discrimination in general and racism.\u00a0 Did you experience that growing up?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I experience it with the guys a lot because I\u2019m very light-skinned and I had wavy hair and I was out of the ordinary.\u00a0 It was only two or three white skinned guys in our class and the rest were brown and ebony black, you follow me?\u00a0 After I joined the gang it was no problem.\u00a0 [One time] We went down to the museum of natural history, you ever heard of it, have you been there?<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 No, I haven\u2019t been there.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Okay, when you come in the summer, please go.\u00a0 You are going to see a statue of Teddy Roosevelt on a horse and an Indian on the side of him and a black slave on the side of him.\u00a0 And Teddy Roosevelt got his pistol at his side.\u00a0 We planned to blow that f**kin statue up.\u00a0 And I planned to do it on my own.\u00a0 Why?\u00a0 Because it shows Teddy Roosevelt as the white saviour and it didn\u2019t have the black or Indian guy in the statue on a horse.\u00a0 So they were subservient.\u00a0 You follow me?\u00a0 So we planned to blow that up because it showed discrimination and the great white father was the king of the road.\u00a0 When you are white you are right, when you brown you can stick around when you yellow you mellow, when you black stand back, when you red you\u2019re dead.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I am talking about Tom Skinner [now].<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 When I was a boy I read his comic book.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Yeah, he had a comic book and a movie and he was never in the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 He was a f**king liar.\u00a0 He\u2019s dead now and I helped chase him out of New York.\u00a0 He was even endorsed by Dr. King with the bulls**t.\u00a0 You saw Thomas Skinner praying with the Washington Redskins.\u00a0 He was a f**king liar.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did Thomas Skinner live in your neighbourhod?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 He lived on 153rd<\/sup> street between 8th<\/sup> Avenue and McCombs.\u00a0 His father was a preacher.\u00a0 His brother was a member of the Harlem Lord Juniors.\u00a0 He\u2019s dead now.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did Thomas ever try joining the gang?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, a f**king punk, he\u2019s a punk.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Did he try even hanging out with the Harlem Lords like a hanger-onner?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 He was a punk, a punk.\u00a0 He never tried it.\u00a0 Never.\u00a0 He took our rep and made money, fortune and fame off the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 What happened was he called himself the leader of the Harlem Lords and saved by Jesus.\u00a0 And this kid named kid Saint who\u2019s dead now was the President of the Harlem Lord Juniors.\u00a0 They caught him and he [Skinner] promised to pay them $10,000.\u00a0 I think he gave them $5,000 and promised to give them more.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 He paid money to some Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 He gave it to Saint, he gave $5 or $10 thousand to Saint.\u00a0 Saint came back and gave money to his brother and to other people and he said he was going back for more and they said, \u201cHe was in the Harlem Lord Juniors.\u201d\u00a0 And I said that\u2019s bulls**t.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 What was the reason for him paying Saint money?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Because he was a liar!\u00a0 So for us to keep our mouth shut.\u00a0 Thomas Skinner left his office in Brooklyn, and moved to an office in Manhattan.\u00a0 He had his office around 43rd<\/sup> street and Fifth avenue, around there.\u00a0 When I caught him he took me to his office, knelt down and said \u201clet\u2019s pray together, I will help you write your book.\u201d\u00a0 I told him \u201cokay but I want you tell the truth that you was never in the Harlem Lords.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Please make sure, Thomas Skinner was never a Harlem Lord.\u00a0 He\u2019s a f**king liar and he didn\u2019t do anything for the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 He made money, fortune and fame off our gang the Harlem Lords.\u00a0 He went to Maryland and other places and started some kind of schools or homes for unwed mothers and s**t like that.\u00a0 But he never, never did s**t for the Harlem Lords and my goal was to write a book and the proceeds that I got I was going to open a church or center, because I\u2019m also an ordained minister.\u00a0 I\u2019m retired now but I still marry and bury people, but the s**t is he spoke with forked tongue and he made money, fortune and fame off of the Harlem Lords.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 That\u2019s one of the reasons why I really wanted to speak with you.<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Thank you very much and I\u2019m not lying to you.\u00a0 And I challenge anybody.\u00a0 All of my life I\u2019ve been trying to get that information out.\u00a0 And now, I saw that I might not be able to get that information out to the public.\u00a0 And Juan sent me your email and it was like a blessing in disguise because if I don\u2019t accomplish what I want to, this f**king lie of his will live on and everybody will be saying, \u201cOh I want to be like Thomas Skinner.\u201d\u00a0 The dirty motherf**ker.\u00a0 And that\u2019s the deal.\u00a0 I\u2019ve been sending emails to his wife; they don\u2019t answer me, I think he had two wives.\u00a0 First he had a black wife who died and the one that\u2019s white is still living.\u00a0 But every time I send an email they don\u2019t answer.\u00a0 People can believe what they want, but I speak in person to anybody about it.\u00a0 If any of the so-called Skinner family want to call me a liar I can debate them face to face.\u00a0 I don\u2019t fear anybody but God, that\u2019s the deal.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 When did they [Harlem Lords] disperse?\u00a0 1960?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 You know what?\u00a0 I would say before that because what happened was drugs came in the gang and the guys in the gang became strung out on heroin and that made the group, not just the Harlem Lords, all the main members of the group f**ked up.\u00a0 And the girls became strung out.\u00a0 And that broke up all the gangs.\u00a0 I graduated from high school in 1957.\u00a0 I went to school and got married and ended up selling cocaine and crack and went to jail and started college in Danbury.\u00a0 I have a master\u2019s from Fordham and I have an honorary doctorate of divinity in theology.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 When you got to age 20, was that when you weren\u2019t in the gang anymore?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 No, when I got to age 18 I wasn\u2019t in the gang really, but I was still a Harlem Lord.\u00a0 The Harlem Lord Juniors and Seniors had faded out because of heroin, because of cocaine.\u00a0 Smoking reefer that wasn\u2019t addicting.\u00a0 But the heroin came in and then the cocaine.\u00a0 That\u2019s what broke up the gangs.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Why do you think so many gang members became addicted to drugs?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 Easy, the Mafia brought it in.\u00a0 That\u2019s elementary.\u00a0 And I\u2019m talking from experience.\u00a0 And that f**ked up everybody.\u00a0 It f**ked up the gangs and they became addicted and it f**ked up at least three generations, maybe four.\u00a0 It\u2019s sad but it\u2019s true.\u00a0 If you want to destroy and stay on top that\u2019 what you do.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 How many Harlem Lords are still around now?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 About five or six original Harlem Lords and about two or three Harlem Lord Juniors.<\/p>\n D:\u00a0 Do you stay in contact with any Harlem Lords?<\/p>\n J:\u00a0 I stay in contact with one, I don\u2019t know where the others are.\u00a0 We have a reunion in July.\u00a0 Everybody from the neighbourhood, 154th<\/sup>, 155th<\/sup>, 153rd<\/sup>, 152nd<\/sup>, Bradhurst all the way over to McCombs.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Before you get to the article\u2026 On February 23, 2018, my book on the Mau Maus and Sand Street Angels, who were two Brooklyn youth gangs from the 1950s, has been completed.\u00a0 It took 15 years of research and writing … Continue reading ![\"Up](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/1.-Up-From-Harlem-Cover.jpg?resize=195%2C300&ssl=1\" "\\"Up")
<\/a>![\"Jocko](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/indio.jpg?resize=392%2C556&ssl=1\" "\\"indio\\"")
<\/a>![\"Aug.15,](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/Aug.15-1956-NYT-Article.jpg?resize=640%2C645&ssl=1\" "\\"Aug.15,")
<\/a><\/p>\n![\"Rockland](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/rocklandpalace.jpg?resize=300%2C241&ssl=1\" "\\"rocklandpalace\\"")
<\/a>![\"Roosevelt](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/roosevelt-statue.jpg?resize=315%2C420&ssl=1\" "\\"Roosevelt")
<\/a><\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/2.-Up-From-Harlem-Lashes1.jpg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1\" "\\"2.")
<\/a>![\"\"](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/3.-Up-From-Harlem-Violence1.jpg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1\" "\\"3.")
<\/a><\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/4.-Up-From-Harlem-Leadership-Challenge2.jpg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1\" "\\"4.")
<\/a><\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/newyorkcitygangs.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/05\/5.-Up-From-Harlem-Rumble-Plan1.jpg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1\" "\\"5.")
<\/a><\/p>\n